[Back to List of Challenges - Home - Challenges of Specific Sites ]
The text by the challenger is in Blue - The answer is in Black. For your convenience the challenge is represented by it's main objections/points. We've not taken the time to answer arguments that are not fact or source based. An example of such an argument would be a reference to false data without listing a single example of such data.
Subject: Similarites between believers in code 19 and the Sunnis/Shias by MrAbcX
S: Hikma = hadith 19: Zikr = mathematical-miracle
Hikma and Zikr are two separate Arabic words? What is the point made here? All the traditional Muslims recognize some hadith as part of the Islamic message, against the decree in the Quran which clearly states that it is a perfect and fully detailed scripture (6:114-115) and that we should not follow any Hadith besides it (7:185, 45:6).
Who have you seen refer to the mathematical miracle as Zikr? Rashad Khalifa, the one who discovered the miracle by God's design and grace, certainly never referred to it as Zikr.
S: some verses of the Quran have been abrogated 19: some verses must be removed, others must be corrected
Looking at the different versions of the existing Arabic Qurans in the world today will tell any intelligent being that some things have been added and/or changed. By God's grace the mathematical miracle pin-points all those discrepancies and prooves that God has preserved the original Quran by a perfect mathematical system hidden and embedded in the Quran since its revelation. Thus all the changes and additions stick out as sore thumbs when measured against the perfect code of the Quran. God's promise is true (15:9).
Those who seek to discredit the mathematical miracle of the Quran like to point out the fact that it exposed two verses as false (9:128-129), claiming that this is a blasphemy against God's assurance in 15:9, completely forgetting the many different spellings of words in the Quran in existing Arabic versions around the world today. Thus they are applying selective arguments and critieria which have nothing to do with upholding the message of God alone in the Quran alone, but everything to do with discrediting God's message to be able to continue to spread their false doctrines outside the Quran.
S: Mohammed was infallible 19: the Quranic spelling is infallible
I think you are being a bit selective in how you apply your reasoning. In two points down you suggest that we ignore and neglect certain spellings, and here you suggest that we claim the Quranic spelling is infallible? Which is it?
God's scritpures, as they are revealed, are without a doubt infallible. Do you believe anything different? We also know from several examples in both the Bible and the Quran that God's messengers and prophets are not.
And as the Quran clearly states, in several verses, Muhammad was a fallible human being just like all the previous men God chose as His prophets and messengers. This however did not limit God's ability to deliver a perfect message through them.
S: authentic hadiths are the true sayings of Mohammed 19: the "Alif" initiated suras are truly dividable by 19
Not sure whether to dignify these kind of poor and sad arguments with a response even....
We all base our faith on things we hold to be true, as in God being the original source. So, probably do you. We have found the Quran to be the proven and unaltered word of God by virtue of its message which contains no contradictions and teaches us things we never knew, and now also by a verifiable mathematical proof.
S: certain hadiths can be ignored/neglected 19: while counting certain words/spellings can be ignored/neglected
Again, we all have our standards by which we decide for ourselves what we hold to be true and not, i.e. what we hold to be from God and not. That goes for all believing men and women, regardless of what we call our faith. If you wish to discuss the methods by which we determine what we hold to be true and not, we can do that. Critizising the principle of us using our senses to distinguish seems rather odd though.
S: we must study hadiths to get a deeper knowledge of the Quran 19: we must study letters/words to get a deeper knowledge of the Quran
There is no must in religion, as there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). However, if you, as we, hold anything to be the true words of God, then it is likely that you find it necessary, at least for yourself, to study those words? Logical or not? Again, if you wish to discuss the methods by which we chose to determine that these are indeed God's words in our eyes, then we can do so, but the principle that we all accept some words as being from God, as believers, is not what is being questioned here...or?
S: the Quran says we must obey the messenger => we must follow haidths 19: the Quran mentions 19 => we must start counting
The Quran does say that we must obey God and His messengers and His prophets. So does the Bible.
The previous miracles were limited in time and space. This is not the case with the miracle of the Quran, the proof that authenticates and restores God's true religion, as preached by all His prophets and messengers:
[Quran 2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."
S: a few hadiths are fabricated but there are too many authentic hadiths 19: Khalifa's work may have some errors, but there are many real diamonds there
The bottom line is this, regardless of who says what, whatever we attribute to God's religion must be supported by God's words. Anyone who suggests anything that contradicts the Quran is preaching his own opinion. This is how we know that Hadith is fabricated, as prophet Muhammad would never have preached all that nonsense which contradicts all stands in direct contradiction with the Quranic teachings. Likewise we know that what Rashad Khalifa preached was the truth, as everything he ever attributed to God, as a messenger of God, is fully supported by the Quran.
For the first time in human history do we have actual recordings of a messenger of God, as well as books published by him, for anyone, anywhere in the world to take part of. Imagine if we had recordings of Abraham, Moses, Jesus or Muhammad!?
To witness God's Messenger of the Covenant preaching God's message as prophesied in the Bible (Malachi 3:1-3) as well as in the Quran (3:81), visit www.video.google.com and search for Rashad Khalifa.
S: Surah Fatiha must be recited in Arabic as the Quran was revelead in this holy language 19: Surah Fatiha must be recited in Arabic as then your lips will touch each other 19 times
That is correct. Al-Fatihah, which means "The Key" must be recited in Arabic as it is mathematically coded, very much like a unique password through which you attain certain access. By 'dialing' this number you make a connection with your Creator five times a day and feed your soul.
The Quran says: "These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications?" (45/6)
Correct translation of this verse is:
[45:6] These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?
God actually uses the word "Hadeethan" in this verse. As we can see, this word is translated as "fact", "announcement", "word" and "exposition" by four other translators.
Verse No Pickthall Shakir Sher Ali Yusuf Ali 45:6 These are the portents of Allah which We recite unto thee (Muhammad) with truth. Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe ? These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what announcement would they believe after Allah and His communications? These are the Signs of ALLAH which WE rehearse unto thee with truth. In what word, then, after rejecting the Word of ALLAH and HIS Signs, will they believe ? Such are the Signs of God, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) God and His Signs? S: We believe in Bukhari, Muslim etc after Allah and his communications. 19: We believe in the calculations done by R.Khalifa, A.Arik, E.Yuksel etc after Allah and his communications.
God's revelations contains numerous facts and information for us. It does not matter through whom it is conveyed, as long as it can be verified in the Quran. The message attains its merit not based on through whom it was revealed, but on what it was based and can be ascertained.
It is a sad human tendency to evaluate the messenger rather than the message. And as we know from many examples in both the Bible and in the Quran, man always has a lot of opinions about the person God chooses to convey His message.
Quran only followers often hear ..
S: You disrespect and reject the prophet by rejecting his hadiths 19: You disrespect and reject the sign of God by rejecting "code 19"
Regardless of what we believe in and call our belief, I think we can all agree that we conclude, at least for ourselves, that disbelieving in that which we hold to be from God, would be a sign of disbelief and disrespect. This is self evident. What is your point?