[Back to List of Challenges - Home - Challenges of Specific Sites ]
The text by the challenger is in Blue - The answer is in Black. For your convenience the challenge is represented by it's main objections/points. We've not taken the time to answer arguments that are not fact or source based. An example of such an argument would be a reference to false data without listing a single example of such data.
Subject: "INITIALS" HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH CODE 19 OR "Initials" are witnesses AGAINST code 19
Niaz-a believer in code 19- wrote: > please explain why .... > > * The initial Set Qaf occurs in Sura 50. The letter Qaf also occurs in > Sura 42. The total number of Qafs in the Suras where they occur = 57 + 57 = > 114 = 19x6. > * The initial Set Ya Seen occurs in Sura 36. The total number of Ya's > and Seen's in this Sura is 285 = 19x15. > * The initial Set Ka Ha Ya Ayn Saad occurs in Sura 19. The total number of > these letters in Sura 19 is 798 = 19x42. > * The initial Set Ha Meem occurs in Suras 40-46. The total number of > Ha-Meem's in the Suras where they occur is 2147 = 19x113. > * The initial Set Ayn Seen Qaf occurs in Sura 42. The total number of Ayn, > Seen, Qaf in this Sura is 209 = 19x11.
What Niaz FORGOT to say about these five 19 divisible counts is that in each and every count(except for letter qaf cause Q is not mentioned in bismilah) he has INCLUDED the letters from bismilahs that preceeds quranic chapters!!??
That is the system, done consistently in all 29 suras prefixed with Quranic Initials, all 29 producing counts that are exactly multiple by 19. To read all about it, click here.
Do you remember how strongly he argued that bismillahs that preceeds quranic chapters are not part of surahs (except in first surah)???? but only preceed/crown chapters(for the sake of justifying of other inventions of his sect).
You find the Basmalah, i.e. "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful" 114 times in the Quran. It occurs in two numbered verses in the Quran, and that is in Sura 1:1 and in 27:30. The only Sura that does not have a Basmalah preceeding it is Sura 9, the Sura that the mathematical miracle exposed as tampered with.
To read all about this, please click here.
What are you talking about, crown chapters?!
And inspite of this, now, he INCLUDED it in count of initials in SURAHS where those initials are found?'*?="#$%&?? Do you remember how strongly he argued that in counting of word Allah, all the occurences of Allah from bismilahs that preceeds quranic chapters should be EXCLUDED???!!! Do you remmember how strongly he opposed the idea that occurences of word allah, ar raheem and arrahmaan in 112 ,so called, unnumbered bismillah should be EXCLUDED from tottal count/sum of these words ???
That has shown to be the system God chose. For the count of the Initials, the Basmalah was consistently counted. For the count of words, it was consistently not, except in the numbered verses, i.e. 1:1 and 27:30.
And now he want to INCLUDE the letters from those bismillahs in count of initials ??,inspite his fanatical belief that those bismillahs actually ARE NOT PART OF THE CHAPTERS where initials are found and counted????!!!! So much about consistency of believers in code and consistency of code 19 itself.
For the 29 chapters prefixed with Quranic Initials, the system has consistently been to count the letters in the Basmalah as well, producing multiples of 19 each time! For all the words of the Quran, the system has consistently been to only count the words in the numbered verses, not in the unnumbered verses, nor in the sura titles.
But since we should be open to the truth, let us analyse for the moment his 19 divisible counts ACCEPTING HIS CHOICE that letters from the bismilahs should be included. (I agree there is a certain logic in including it in count of initials.)
Even then, Niaz again missed to see and show the whole picture. He did not mentioned that there are 14 sets of initials. Of which EIGHT (8) are NOT 19-divisible.
This is phenomenon that is common to believers in code 19. They allways look at and present ONLY those counts that are 19-divisible, and they never mention those that are not 19-divisible. He presented five(5) 19-divisible "initial sets. BUT what he OMMITED AND WHAT HE DID NOT MENTION are EIGHT(8)or NINE(9) other initial sets whose count (or summ) is NOT 19-DIVISIBLE!!!!
1 Set Ta-Ha(surah 20) 279 not 19-divisible
2 Set Ta-Seen(surah 26,27,28) 369 not 19-divisible
3 Set Ta-Seen-Meem(surahs 26 and 28) 1192 not 19-divisible
4 Set Noon(surah 68) 132 not 19-divisible
5 Set Sad(surah 7,19,38) 153 not 19-divisible,
6 Set Alif-Lam-Meem-Sad(surah 7) 5136 not 19-divisible
7 Set Alif-Lam-Meem-Ra(surah 13) 1436 not-19 divisible
8 Set Alif -Lam-Meem (surahs 2,3,7,13,29,30,31,32) 25853 not 19-divisible
(counts/datas are from Abu Jamil, from www.q-zone.com, -one of the authorities among believers in code 19)
These counts are incorrect. The correct counts are:
Sura Initials Frequency of Initials Tot.G.Val. in Sura 2 A.L.M. 9899 188362 3 A.L.M. 5662 109241 7 A.L.M.S 5320 103719 10 A.L.R. 2489 80109 11 A.L.R. 2489 90190 12 A.L.R. 2375 77066 13 A.L.M.R. 1482 52805 14 A.L.R. 1197 46145 15 A.L.R. 912 29383 19 K.H.Y.`A.S. 798 17575 20 T.H. 279 1507 26 T.S.M. 611 25297 27 T.S. 121 5883 28 T.S.M. 581 24691 29 A.L.M. 1672 31154 30 A.L.M. 1254 25014 31 A.L.M. 817 16177 32 A.L.M. 570 11227 36 Y.S. 285 5250 38 S. 29 2610 40 H.M. 444 15712 41 H.M. 324 11424 42 H.M.-`A.S.Q. 562 28224 43 H.M. 368 13312 44 H.M. 166 6128 45 H.M. 231 8248 46 H.M. 261 9288 50 Q 57 5700 68 N,N 133 6650 41388 1048091 41388 + 1048091 = 1089479 (19 x 57341) To read all about it, click here.
I am sure that his five(5) 19-divisible sets look less impressive after these EIGHT(8) that ARE NOT 19 divisible.
(please do not let them decieve you by saying Alif counts are not reliable cause "it differs from script to script and is normal thing that sums of alifs are not 19 divisible". Sets of initials Ta Ha,Ta Seen,Ta Seen Meem,etc that preceeds several chapters and that contains no Alifs are also NOT 19 divisible; and also, if it is alowed to count according other scripts, then even those five (5) 19-divisible counts will be ruined cause in other scripts there are some variations (from the text that RK and believers in code use and are reffering to) in spelling of the arabic letters. For example, T instead of J (no change in meaning), and only 2 or maybe 3 or even maybe ONLY 1 out of 5 Niazs counts would be 19-divisible)
Several of the suras have interlocking relationships, such as all the suras with H.M. as Initials for example.
As correctly pointed out by the writer of this article, there are differences in the spellings and in the scripts of the Arabic Quran in different parts of the world, and the most difficult Initial to count has been the letter Alif.
The reason that counting Alif has been the most complex part of counting the Initials is that the writing in the oldest available transcripts of the Quran (as the Tashkent Quran) compared to most versions available today are different in the sense that 'reading-help' was added to facilitate correct pronouniciation of different letters. Added hamzas was part of that 'reading-help'.
In the oldest available transcripts hamzas are present and is considered one form of Alif. This is why both letters have the same gematrical (numerical) value - i.e. 1 (in the days when the Quran was revealed, letters were used as numbers). The letter 'hamza' have since then been used more extensively for additonal reasons to indicate pronounciation. Whether a hamza is to be considered an Alif or not thus depends on the circumstances in which it is used, and whether or not it is consistent with the original spelling of the word.
To give you an indication of the complexity of counting hamzas for people unaccustomed to both the Arabic language and the original Quranic Arabic, the text below gives you an idea. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza
There are differences in spelling of the Arabic Quran in different versions. The count of Alif Rashad reported however are in consistentcy with the original transcript.
Here is the proof of the different versions in spelling available in the world today:
The writing of the Quran according to Hafs
The writing of the Quran according to Warsh
surah 5:54 (yartadda)
surah 5:56 (yartadid)
surah 91:15 (wa la yakhaafu)
surah 91:15 (fa la yakhaafu)
surah 3:133 (wasaari'uu)
surah 3:133 (saari'uu)
surah 2:132 (wawassaa)
surah 2:129 (wa'awsaa)
surah 2:140 (taquluna)
surah 2:139 (yaquluna)
surah 2:259 (nunshizuhaa)
surah 2:258 (nunshiruhaa)
surah 3:81 (ataytukum)
surah 3:80 (ataynakum)
surah 2:132 (himu)
surah 2:131 (hiimu)
surah 2:9 (yakdhibuuna)
surah 2:9 (yukadhdhibuuna)
surah 2:214 (yaquula)
surah 2:212 (yaquulu)To help you verify the count of the Initials, Rashad wrote two books in which he lists the exact counts of them all, and places images with each letter marked in several of the suras. The books are called, "Quran: Visual Presentation of the Miracle" (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11) and "The Computer Speaks: God's message to the world."
There are numerous other ways of analysing initials(and also there are other possible methods of counting the letters; you can exclude those from bismilahs, you can exclude initials itself in surah where initials are counted; for example if it could produce some 19 divisible hits, code 19 believers would be arguing and proving with all possible means that it is very logical that initials itself should be excluded in counting initials in surahs.
This is almost funny, it it wasn't so sad and so evil. Are you seriously stating here that IF a certain situation would occur, then supporters of the code 19 would do something inappropriate in your mind? Does this mean nothing was actually done that you could mention here as an example?!
For example,then, occurences of initials Ha-Meem in chapter 41 in verse No1 should not be counted, because the verse No 1 consist of initials (Ha meem) themselves. The beggining of surah 41 goes: 1.Ha,Meem 2.A revelation from the Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
The consistent system is to count the intials throughout the sura. In all 29 chapters the Initials themselves are counted in the sura. Sura 41 is no exception! To verify, click here: (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
Besides this there are the other ways to analyse initials.
I made some analyses according to simple and plain methods that could easily show does code exist or not. Datas for my analysis I took from tables with counts of initials of Abu Jamil www.q-zone.com
1.For example, if we count all the initials that crown particular chapter and if we divide its count/sum with 19 and if we analyse all 29 initialed surahs using the same method, we found that ONLY 3 surah out of 29 initialed surahs shows 19 divisible count/sum of its initials (chapters :No19 Merjem , chapter No 36 ja seen,Chapter 50 Qaf). ONLY 3 out 29 ???!!! Is this a miracle??? What miracle is this???? ONLY 3 out 29 ???!!! This is on level of an everyday coincidence.
The text and counts on the site www.q-zone.com are incorrect. There are several versions of software claiming to have the complete Quranic text in Arabic. Just as the written versions, they differ somewhat in spelling.
2.Similarly, people often say :" In the surah No 50(surah qaf) there are 57 qafs(letter qaf), and in surah No 42(surah Shura) there are also 57 qafs, and 57+57 =114 and you see it is 19 divisible and it`s miracle!!!".
But, when we analyse other initials using the same method, no "inital" (letter) show such a 19 divisibility pattern.(even in the case that Sin in the word bastaten(7/69) is corrected to Sad and Noon in 68/1 spelled out as NwN, even then we have only 3 out of 14 initials that have 19-divisible count)
So we have ONLY ONE(1) 19-divisible sum out of 14???? Is this a miracle ??? Is this a one of the graetest miracles???
The argumentation of this challenger actually proves how powerful and awesome this miracle really is. It is so sensitive that even changing a few single letters here and there, and the whole miracle collapses. Yet, God willed to preserve it, according to His promise (15:9).
There is no way around this. You need to decide to study this miracle for yourself. You should know that God tells us that the Initials are "miracles of this book of wisdom."
[10:1] A.L.R.* These (letters) are the proofs of this book of wisdom.
[12:1] A.L.R. These (letters) are proofs of this profound scripture.*
[13:1] A. L. M. R.* These (letters) are proofs of this scripture. What is revealed to you from your Lord is the truth, but most people do not believe.
and several more...
Only with the revelation of the mathematical miracle of the Quran do we finally understand what God means by this. It is also significant for you to know that it took 1406 years between the revelation of the Quran and the revelation of its miracle. 1406 is 19x74, and 1974 was the year in which the miracle based on the number 19 was revealed, which is mentioned in Sura 74.
Niaz analysed initals acording a method where initials are considered as a sets of initials. And he found five of them 19 divisible out of 14. This is nothing. Abu Jamil get a similar result but using a bit different method of analysis. And he analyse it statistically and his final conclusion was that significance of this phenomenon is 1:70.000.(though i think that it is overstated let us accept his result and let us analyse it) What does it mean? It means that 1 out of every 70.000 books contains such a code.
It means that every 70.000th human authored book analysed by the same method will show similar pattern!!!
Although the count of the Initials that consistently produce multiples of 19 are a major part of the Quranic code based on the number 19, there are several other major aspects of the code also based on the same number - 19. Here are some of the simple facts:
- The first verse (1:1),known as "Basmalah," consists of 19 letters.
- The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is ..............19 x 6.
- The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or ....19 x 334.
[6234 numbered verses & 112 un-numbered verses
(Basmalahs) 6234+112 = 6346] Note that 6+3+4+6 =.......19.- The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its conspicuous
absence from Sura 9 (it occurs twice in Sura 27) & 114= 19x6.- From the missing Basmalah of Sura 9 to the extra
Basmalah of Sura 27, there are precisely ...............19 suras.- It follows that the total of the sura numbers from
9 to 27 (9+10+11+12+...+26+27) is 342, or .............19 x 18.- This total (342) also equals the number of words
between the two Basmalahs of Sura 27, and 342 = ........19 x 18.- The famous first revelation (96:1-5) consists of .......19 words.
- This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters .19 x 4.
- Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists
of .....................................................19 verses.- This first chronological sura is placed atop the last ..19 suras.
- Sura 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters, and 304 equals .19 x 16.
- The last revelation (Sura 110) consists of ............19 words.
- The first verse of the last revelation (110:1) consists
of ....................................................19 letters.- 14 different Arabic letters, form 14 different sets of
"Quranic Initials" (such as A.L.M. of 2:1), and prefix
29 suras. These numbers add up to 14+14+29 = 57 = ......19 x 3.- The total of the 29 sura numbers where the Quranic
Initials occur is 2+3+7+...+50+68 = 822, and 822+14
(14 sets of initials) equals 836, or ................. 19 x 44.- Between the first initialed sura (Sura 2) and the last
initialed sura (Sura 68) there are 38 un-initialed suras 19 x 2.- Between the first and last initialed sura there are ....19 sets
of alternating "initialed" and "un-initialed" suras.- The Quran mentions 30 different numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,
6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80,
99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50,000, &
100,000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.It practicaly means that whichever library you visit you can find a dozen of books coded by "code 19" which they claim is extraordinary and divine???!!! Their code is embeded UNINTENTIONALY by their human authors while they were writting them. While they were writing let say about recipes for cakes, or about most succesfull sportist of the year, or about famous historical events, etc. etc. etc. Not to say what could be done if somebody has intention to make such a code, that is to embede it in his book. So even the book of atheists could be coded with such a code. And claims in style:"produce a surah like this" by reffering it to code 19 is ridiculous.
It is difficult to understand how someone who claims to believe in the Quran can be so upset about straightforward facts presented FROM the Quran, resulting in so many people believing in it as extraordinary and divine, and believing that it should be our source for religious guidance.
One would think that the Simple Facts above alone should be sufficient to make anyone really excited, not to mention someone who already have accepted the Quran as their book of law, as it represents confirmation that they are following the truth.
The Basmalah contains 19 letters.
Your lips touch 19 times when you say the Alfatehah.
Do you think all of this is mere coincidences?
Of course Niaz will try to argue about this and refute it by saying: ***** Among the "millions and millions" of books in the world, how many of them have certain chapters initialled with some mysterious Initials the, the significance of which was not known for 14 centuries? (this, about hidden secretduring 14 centuries is is a conjecture par exellance, but we will discuss it in some other posts, but it must be said that if the thing how was quran fully detailed, without hadith,was also hidden secret for a 14 centuries for an oridinary masses, why, then, wander about initials -my comment) And among the "millions and millions" of books in the world, how many of them would you find these letters consistently described as the Signs of the Book by its author? *****
This is a faulty logic. This is an attempt to connect/link /associate an insignificant phenomenon which represent a main doctrine of a blasphemous sect with The Signs of God`s Book in order to justify a teaching of the sect giving a divine stamp to it.(This is a no better attempt than attempt of sunnies who tried to conect obedience of messenger with the obedience to books of hadith.) This is an attempt of changing of hypothesis.
Finally, the real problem behind all these objections to the miracle. You have a problem with the 'teachings' supported by those who support the miracle. Again, what those 'teachings' are, you do not mention....
The conclusion of those that have accepted the Quran to be miraculously mathematically composed is no different from those that believe in all the words of the Quran - they uphold the Quran as their only source of religious guidance, which they Quran commands us to. So what is the issue you are having with the way Submitters to God Alone believe and practice their religion? In what way do they practice and believe differently from you, except on the point of the miracle?
